I can never tolerate such an awful experience - an awful evening. It was the evening in which the Landmark Forum tried to make me a slave to their addicting practices. Not much of the forum irks me, the stupidity with which the people who have been to the forum behave is the one that does. Those who have been to the Landmark Education or Forum have turned utterly stupids!
In one of the Landmark Forum's practices or Marketing ploy, it sure seemed to me as a give away of their ways. The Landmark Forum organized a session (the session I attended was organized in Chinmaya Heritage Center, Chetpet, Chennai). The entry fee for the session was Rs. 1,100 minimum which is the ploy. I walked in straight into the Landmark Forum and was welcomed by a slew of young girls who forged a smile on their faces which would immediately command a smile back from you.
I was asked for my profession in a form for which I had written 'Writer'. I slowly went inside and saw a man talking about his ' New Laptop broken and that the upset did last for only a few minutes - the magic of Landmark Forum'. I felt nauseated about the kind of crap I had put myself into. I later moved over to the first row (not because I grew interested but because my friends were there in the first row).
A popular director of Tamil Cinema or Kollywood endorsed the Landmark Forum. I enjoyed it. Soon another one spoke. The first half of the session came to a conclusion. There came the problem in the form of a teary eyed girl (don't know for what reason) tagged 'volunteer'. She came and sat right next to me and said in a pleasing tone, "Hi, My name is ______________, and I joined this forum and are you willing to register?"
"What?"
"You can pay Rs. 1100 to register and you can pay the rest of the money after some time."
"What the hell for?"
"Of course! Everybody feels it is a marketing tactic... but......."
It is I thought to myself and said, "I had not thought to that extent before you said that."
"But it is not.... Don't think I am forcing you but that is the way we do it. You can take down my phone number and...."
You disgusting, dewy... I don't need it. "Well, I am not saying it is a marketing ploy or Scam... but it is a bad way of treating the visitors. You cannot force anybody to join."
"It is because people might just not take it serious if they get out of this place. We want everybody who has gathered here to take home the benefit."
The girl's face twitched in a manner as though I was the one who asked her to transfer money to my bank account. "I will take care of it myself. I will think over it myself and get back to you." I was disgusted with that approach.
Then, half a dozen people started advising me on why it is good to join the Landmark Forum. I was never forced in my life to do anything and I never did anything that was forced upon me. I did everything only if I wanted to do it. I did what I did not like for the first time. I paid the Rs. 1100 with my heart bleeding.
There was a man sitting on the stage as though he was suffering hemorrhoids. I watched the proceedings and it was all crap with rehashed material from the Self-Help Books. Many of the graduates of Landmark Forums stupidly applied whatever is learned from Landmark Education and forced their friends and relatives to join the forum.
They tainted even their relationships with friends and family members to get them joined in the Landmark Forum. Stupidly and artificially applying the learnings from Landmark Forum left them with a disrepute which they are not aware of. Sometimes they are not aware of this disrepute and at other times they are ready to face it to make anybody join Landmark Forum.
Those who have joined and forced others to join are not average people but stupid Vice-Presidents and CEOs of various top companies, actors and directors. The Landmark Forum programs them to act in a mechanical way which makes them to act in a way that does not care even about self respect in the process of making people join.
I was left in the nauseating hall with a severe half-baked American accent of a man completely incomprehensible. He spoke two more hours of crap and wound up the show. Landmark Forum makes people turn overjoyed by saying something that makes them feel energized. I pronaavunce (the awful accent of the trainer) you oaalll as graaduwhites."
He is or probably was an Indian. I witnessed utter crap, nothing of any use and only for a mere three days of seminar with loads of stupid crap stolen from self help books, you have to pay the Landmark Forum Rs. 7500. Do a Google search and see that they have purchased the first ten slots of the Search Engine results with different websites to not let any negative views infiltrate.
However, they are caught in the related tags and keywords 'Landmark Forum Scam', 'Lanmark Forum Brainwashing', 'anti landmark forum', 'Landmark Forum Criticism', 'Landmark Forum Fraud', 'Landmark Rackets', and so on. The Landmark Forum is a complete brainwashing scam and a racket that fraudulently and forcibly tries to make people join the forum. The Landmark Education Forum does not care about people's money and cares only about making its own money.
Beware, brutal tortures are awaiting you in the Landmark Forum and going to that crap means you will have to make decisions forced upon you by others and you will be taught and brainwashed with some crap that you will almost harass and torture others to join the Landmark Forum. I have worked as a Knowledge Management Analyst in a training company and know of the ways in which they try to brainwash their students or trainees.
They make even the most intelligent people turn stupid and subject them to what they want you to do. The Landmark Forum will not set you free even after you complete. You will be forced upon by the stupidity to proceed further. Till death, the Landmark Forum will haunt you. My statements might look like it is over the top but please note that you will be subjected to severe brain washing in the Landmark Forum.
Although I do not have much to say as I have refrained from joining this Landmark Forum or Landmark Education crap, I have gathered significant proof from other sources. All you have to do is read on and educate yourself and not get crap education from the stupid Landmark Forum:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmarkvisitor.html
http://motherjones.com/media/2009/07/landmark-42-hours-500-65-breakdowns
http://motherjones.com/media/2009/07/landmark-42-hours-500-65-breakdowns?page=2
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=50326
I do disagree with you. You are ofcourse entitled to your own opinion, but I think it is ill informed. I have visited the links that you ave put in your post and frankly they are all subjective and on some level fear mongering. Rick Ross makes a living by leading an internet witch hunt. He has no professional credentials and yet sells himself as an expert. Mother Jones is an opinion piece, and the message board is a bunch of people who are giving an opinion with no first hand experience. You are obviously a smart and even witty guy, but you are a little bit too in love with your own opinions to take very seriously on this particular subject. I like your writing and will come back but in the mean time, I would say that this is a much more fair, balanced and most importantly INFORMED assesment of landmark: http://www.whatsthedealaboutlandmark.com/forum_0102.htm
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for your views! I guess you have subscribed to return comments and replies!
ReplyDeleteOf course! Thank you very much for finding my writing good! Again of course! I agree with my lack of evidence! Nothing is concrete on my part except for the fact that those who have joined the forum considered it more important than their own life!
One of my friends was constantly forced by his Manager to join the Landmark Forum! In the process, the manager applied whatever he learned from the Landmark Forum to make her join. My friend found all his tactics as stupid enough.
Later, he told one of his colleagues that his superior was behaving in such manner and found that whatever he did was taught in the landmark forum. Though everything else I learned about the landmark forum was just hearsay, this one has been pretty closer.
I refrained from joining the landmark forum because what I saw in the introduction session did not impress me and it was a complete failure to me - not only as a visitor but also as one who has worked as a trainer.
In the training company I worked, I saw that they manipulated college students to take up jobs after college than to encourage them to run their own businesses or to study further because campus recruitment was their target. The more the students were equipped to attend the interviews and more the placements, more the money they got.
I felt pity for the students that they were tender and young and were manipulated and talked out of their ambitions and goals. All their dreams and conceptions of life so far would crash to nothing.
I felt Landmark Forum as the same. I did not have enough concrete evidences to go up against them but I just want to caution anybody who is about to join the Landmark Forum. Supposing someone does a Google search on the forum prior to joining, they could take home my message and think over it before joining.
I have tried to make it sound interesting because such dry topics do not get read and also that I expressed the events in a comical way just because I was so much irked by the proceedings, on the session and further. I will surely read the link you have given. Thanks for that link.
I read it. All cooked up. The lady has written like plucking flowers from the garden. Nothing concrete than what I have written. Everything is hunky-dory for the naive, young girl. That was what I felt.
Wayne D.,
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous, I think you are mistaking Dinesh Babu's anger for being misinformed. I too was approached by a woman I know to go to an introduction which I did do. I was very suspicious of the hard sales tactics and heavy handed manipulations they attempted to use on me. As I have lived in California USA all my life I have experience with Landmarks parent organization est. At the time I did not know the connection to est so I began investigating deeply the history and philosophy of Landmark. In short I just would like to point out to Anonymous and any other Landmarkers who are viewing this that the philosophy that you are so blithely spouting come from a number of New age philosophers whose views have been used to justify some horrendous acts. (Martin Heidegger - Personal responsibility of the Jews for their extermination in World War II).
For a good overview of how personal development groups like Landmark are actually detrimental to society and how they fit into the western society's mental breakdown I recomment viewing the 2002 BBC documentary " The Century of Self"
Dinesh Babu, Your instincts are spot on.
Thank you Wayne,
ReplyDeleteThat sounded awful to derive philosophies out of horrendous violations. Yes, I have written out of instinct and an ability to judge proceedings that unfold before me.
Having worked in training institutes, I see that it is part of the methodology to brainwash the subjects. I could perceive that people were brainwashed and most of the Landmark Forum Members were acting insane with the belief that the Landmark Forum will help in some way.
The training institutes I have worked for were notorious in manipulating students to take up careers instead of higher studies or self-employed businesses. It was because that was going to fetch them more points if Campus Placements were going to rise.
Driven by objectives, these forums do manipulate people in one way or the other. And also, I read the Landmark Forum's Application Form which stated that very few of the people suffered psychosis and even schizophrenia.
The Landmark Forum could not state that some of the people suffered. It was not suitable for everyone and people were bludgeoned into the Forum by peer pressure irrespective of the psychological illnesses that will arise.
This is when it is not suitable for everyone. Landmark Forum members insanely force other people to join not caring about the kind of impending mental impact. When we are forced from one end, we are told to refrain from the forum in case we are going to suffer mentally.
Hence, the decision making has to be strong on the part of those who are either willing to join or not. I endorse that severe stimulation of stronger emotions do cause mental breakdowns. Yes, mental breakdowns are possible and it is not suitable for everyone.
In the Application form and TOS, we are also asked to not even paraphrase the comments of anyone who has been through the forum. This is against democracy and freedom of speech.
I did not want to sign such a non-disclosure agreement and hence, opted out along with not wanting to fall prey to their marketing tactics.
You're welcome Dinesh,
ReplyDeleteI felt compelled to respond to Anonymous' post because 1. He(she) was using the Landmark method of silencing critics by attacking them with twisted facts, and 2. Landmark has made many inroads into India with their programs and I feel that any light being shed on their activities could only help curb their decadent influence.
Rick Ross' website is a good albeit emotional place to research Landmark and other similar groups. Anonymous claimed Rick Ross has no credentials as an expert yet he has been used in court cases on many occasions. Rick Ross is a lawyer however and he supplies supporting documentation online for the information he disseminates, something Landmark does not do for it's rather grandiose claims of 90% plus satisfaction rate of it graduates.
Your generation is the future of India and the world. Make a better job of it than mine did. Keep blogging about what you see and question the validity of everything that some would have you accept blindly.
The documentary I mentioned is available on Youtube although it is tedious to watch in 6 minute segments. If you'd like I could send you a copy though it might take a few weeks to arrive there from the USA. Let me know.
Hugely welcome Wayne!
ReplyDeleteThank you for your willingness to take so much effort to send it. My Internet is pretty slow, and tedious of course as you said, to watch it. And being a (commercial) writer, I find little time to watch buffering videos. Please do send the documentary.
I am a movie reviewer, journalist and blogger. So, I would be happy to learn more facts from the documentary and post them. Please, do send. My email is bobdeni244@yahoo.co.in
Send an email to me and I will send you my address. Your benevolence is commendable. I do like this collaboration towards propagating truth. If you say, your generation, I assume you are living in a generation before me. That way, I am happy at getting a senior friend.
Looking forward to receiving your mail!
Dear Dinesh,
ReplyDeletePlease note that I am not the 'anonymous' who now has 'a world of possibilities' as long as that includes pushing as many friends, families and strangers into joining landmark. Apparently The Forum works best if you tell as many people about how wonderful it was for you as possible. How convenient.
There is another documentary you may be interested in at this site (it has most of but not all the footage)...
http://www.caic.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1243&Itemid=12
It is in French with English subtitles. I got interested in looking at this as well as the sites you listed, when one of my friends went completely weird over one weekend after doing the landmark forum.
He has since done at least 3 other courses through them and our friendship is now fragile at best and I am really only staying friends because I feel sorry for him as he's being used to propel someone's big business. I think, if he realises this, it will be a big shock and he'll need many friends to help him through the shock of dicovering he hasn't really changed much at all, bar being a bit more annoying to be around now. I, of course am not the sort of person who dumps their friends because they've changed in some way but now I feel as though I am speaking to a businessman trying to get me to buy from him more than a friend.
I just wish Australia, where I am from and am currently living, would ban it like the French.
So, I apologise for agreeing with you instead of disagreeing as you suggested but it appears there is no need to disagree! You are the one who has your own opinions and can make your own destiny as opposed to needing someone to tell you what to do like those in landmark, who, are as ill-informed and 'lacking credentials' as you and 'Rick Ross' were accused of being by the other 'anonymous.'
Dear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt might be best if you identify yourself as "Anonymous2" or something similar to that so as to distinguish yourself from the first poster.
I sympathize with your situation. My friend, "L", is a 50 year old woman who has been involved with Landmark for some twenty years. She fails to see the harm it has done to her over the years. I dated her two times until it turned into a recruitment and I haven't asked her since. I still maintain a friendship with her for the reasons you mention. I will not turn my back on a friend even if they do not see there own problem.
I don't know what your relationship was with your friend but at present his relationship with Landmark is paramount. Every time he asks you to attend an introduction or sign up for a course give him a kind but firm "No, thank you", then change the subject. Any reason you give for your decision will just give him a wedge with which to work on you.
I've seen the french video and it is very powerful. Dinesh told me his connection is somewhat slow so streaming it is not practical for him. The BBC documentary I mentioned gives an overall explanation as to why western society is the way it is (which includes the LGAT phenomenon) and in my opinion should be taught in schools. It is 4 hours long and although available on youtube it is in 5 minute segments and tedious in the extreme to watch it that way. I've sent a copy to Dinesh and I offer the same to you if you'd like. I'll keep watch on this blog. Be strong.
Sincerely, Wayne D.
Hi
ReplyDeleteMy boyfriend went to the LE over 4 years ago, we have been together 2 years and engage around 6 months, anyway our relationship has been good, off course some problems, but we are having problems since i asked him when we are going to get married, well i have the right to know where we are going, anyway since then he is pushing to get into the landmark forum, he said how it changed his life, i haven been 2 in the introducion sesions and i am not interested to go, but he is pushing me to do the forum, i paid to do it just to make him happy but something happened(thanks God) and i had to cancelled it, my boyf is upset cos i am not going to do LE, to be honest i saw few things about how they tried to get you into, quite agressive, the last time i went the leader was talking to us and asking me how do you feel when you complaind about his lack of commitment, well hello i feel bad off course, so the leader in my opinion was tried in a very agressive way telling me that i need the forum to resolve our problems, and be honest i dont know what changed in my boyfriend's life, he said it was great and changed his life, but he has the same commitment problems and controling ways, so i dont know what he is talking about, the first time i went to the introduction session a lady was talking to me about how it changed her life, she introduced her boyrfiend to do it and how she is forgiving him about all the shit he does on her, he cheated on her and now other woman is pregnant and all sort of stuff about she learned how to love a JERK and is happy, whats the wrong with these people!, really this put me off, i dont want to love a JERK to start with, but i love my man and he is a good man but he said he wont compromised if 'we are not in the same level of communication' so much bs, so how i can convence him that i dont want to do that and just be happy. He loves me but he is so into that bs that i need it too to be happy together. if someone can give me some advice please. thanks
In reference to the above post from anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI obviously can’t advise on your course of action but I felt my experience might be of some help in understanding and to let you know that this situation is not uncommon.
My girlfriend did the LF and the advanced course a while ago and at the time made suggestions about signing up so we could ‘talk on the same level’. I never did sign up to it and didn’t attend any introductory sessions. Anyway she has recently finished the ‘relationship seminar’ and finally persuaded me to attend the ‘graduation’ on the final night. It was one of those relationship pressure moments where she expected me to at least go along for her, ‘you would go along because you care about me’ kind of approach.
I experienced the same as many other attendees that just ‘didn’t get it’. The people I met had a range of low self esteem, assertiveness, father and relationship problems. I sat through the sales pitch and declined to sign up. Was phoned three times by them over the course of the following week and told them to stop in a very assertive way!
The evening of the ‘graduation’ I experienced from my girlfriend controlling behaviour in public resulting in an embarrassing situation that I attempted to talk to her about once we got back to her place. She refused to accept her behaviour was unacceptable and that telling me what I can and can’t do (telling me I shouldn’t have a small cold bottle of beer with my beef noodles!!) was perfectly ok because she cared about me. The conversation also focussed on LF and why I wouldn’t sign up. The stance she took was that any partner of hers would have to do the LF to continue in a relationship with her. Her sister also took the same stance that she would not have a relationship with a man that hadn’t done the LF. The reality of the situation struck home when she aggressively shouted at me, ‘Your NOT going to sign up are you!’ It is ironic that the relationship seminar she attended and the pressure she exerted on me to sign up caused an irreversible breakup that evening of our relationship, on the evening of the ‘graduation’ of the relationship seminar! Despite this I did attempt to make her see reason, I looked further into the psychology and terminology of what LE is based on. I found this video, http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1243&Itemid=12url
I persuaded her to watch this with me and she lasted 20 min refusing to accept what she was watching claiming it was all out of context. She continued to support the actions of the leader and the LE. We just need to look at the amount of negative feedback on LE and use common sense. In the UK I believe they charge about £395 for the forum. Would you give someone on eBay that amount of money if they had anything like the amount of negative feedback? Despite the French documentary evidence that resulted in LE packing their bags and running out of Paris, my girlfriend still refused to acknowledge that there could be any criticism. Well some people still deny the holocaust happened despite the film, photographic and testimony available!
Common sense shows something wrong when the end game is ‘Now bring three people that have never had anything to do with LE along to your graduation Tuesday evening ’Do you want to know what language they use, where it comes from? To get on the same playing field read Neuro-linguistic programming for Dummies, it won’t demand three days of your life and put pressure on you to sign up friends, family and loved ones to be landmark loonies. As mentioned earlier on a post it’s all in the self help books. Try out Paul McKenna ‘Change your life in seven days’ you will notice the same language come up time and time again. As I began, I cannot suggest how you deal with this but to say I was not very subtle about my approach as pushing the negative side to my former partner just made her dig her heals in even more. I am left feeling the LF ended that relationship.
Not that you guys are not busy, I am overwhelmed by the response, I was entirely busy over the last month or so with other writing assignments hitherto not knowing that there was so much going on here. I apologize to all of you!
ReplyDeleteI am happy with the corroboration that is happening in here as I suffered lack of evidence. Wayne D Salinger would go on to send me a DVD of the 'Century of Self' all the way from the US - what painstaking effort! Coming back here, I feel everyday that I have not done justice to his effort!
I also feel the guilt of not being able to write another article after watching the 'Century of Self'. I watched some part of it and understood the point it was trying to make - Mass Manipulation. Watching movies on my Laptop for two or three days as half an hour episodes, I hardly have been in the habit of watching due to writing assignments! You know it is tough in India to survive and most of us do have to over work!
No excuses, seeing the proceedings here, I am bent on inferring from Wayne's effort and will go on to publish an article for Landmark Forum should not make inroads into India. Tom gave a valid point that relationships are not shared with those who do not undergo the Forum Training!
Awful brainwashing that is on the part of Landmark Forum! I, once again, would like to say sorry to Wayne! I watched the documentary yesterday setting aside time around 2 or 3 AM. Quite insightful of mass manipulation! I also would like to thank him for sending me the documentary! With this new found friendship going, I would take the valuable efforts of my friends, as all of you are, and proceed further in propagating truths about the Landmark Forum!
I am also going to cite the right Criticisms on Landmark Forum from Wikipedia and other sources! I have gathered some! Ultimately, our lives are on our hands or leave it to God as some would like to but nobody on Earth is going to teach you the art of living. The Landmark Forum's claims are similar!
ReplyDeleteJust as this, so many Swamijis throng this country who owe celibacy, propagate celibacy and ultimately turn hypocrites and womanizers! This has been the fate of the country! However, some kind of 'domino effect' is present all over the world! Let us try to eliminate it as far as possible!
Hi Tom, Anonymous and of course Dinesh,
ReplyDeleteI would like to add a little historical perspective to this discussion. In 1971 a family member of took the est seminar which is the predecessor of the Landmark Forum. Her subsequent behavioral shift caused a rift in our family that lasted decades. Although the Landmark Forum has changed the methodology and the focus a bit it's basic philosophy is pretty much intact. That being that each of us creates the context of our lives and is completely responsible for it's outcome. In philosophy this belief is called "solipsism". The belief that reality is only what you, the individual, perceive it to be.
In the world of philosophy this is mostly a mental exercise. Those people who try to put it into practice run into the problem of other peoples realities disagreeing with there own. In the world of Landmark Forum many people develop personality disorders like narcissism, control dependency and various others as described on this link
https://health.google.com/health/ref/Personality+disorders
My family member a few years back developed a case of OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) for which she is under medication to this day. I cannot say for sure that her involvement with this group caused her problem but with all the evidence on the internet I believe that it is likely a contributing factor.
In the present as I mentioned in a previous post here I have a friend who is deeply involved with Landmark Education. I have told her in no uncertain terms that I will not be participating in the Landamark Forum. I took great pains to tell that I value her as a friend and that I see her as more than just a Landmark participant. It seemed to help her self esteem a bit but I have not directly challenged Landmark so I don't know whether or not my tactic will work. I hope so.
Anonymous, Your fiance is practicing emotional blackmail with you. This is very antisocial and childish of him. It would seem that his Landmark leaders are also playing the same game. You have apparently decided to not take the training. Don't back down in this. If can't accept you for who you are and not who he wants you to be then doesn't deserve your love. It also shows that his maturity level has been negatively affected. Please post here again if you wish to talk. There are many people willing to lend a sympathetic ear.
Tom, you might be interested to know that the idea that language creates your personal reality, the concept that we are all personally responsible for everything that happens to us and quite a few of the words that Landmarkers use come from a German philosopher named Martin Heidegger. He was also quite an unapologetic Nazi in the 1920's and 1930's. He seemed to have been adjusting his work to support the Nazi cause. There is a solid link between him and Landmark Education
Martin Heidegger after WWII worked directly with Fernando Flores in field of philosophy. Fernando Flores helped Werner Erhard (John Paul Rosenberg) set up the Erhard Seminar Training course. In 1991 Mr. Erhard leased the rights to his "technology" to a group of est employees including his brother Harry Rosenberg. They then changed the name of it to Landmark Education Corporation.
Dinesh, no apologies necessary. It is a long 4 hour documentary and as you say we all have to survive in this world Thanks for providing this venue to help educate the world.
Be well all, Wayne
HI Dinesh,
ReplyDeleteI should thank you for writing your views fairly rest is ppl's headache. I too experience this from my friend. He is very much respected and devout man to relationships...after joining this forum he is after ppl asking them to come to introductory sessions and once stepping into those sessions we know the rest of the story.
My view is, this is something like that chain marketing "AMWAY" kind of thing. surprisingly at hyderabad Landmark ppl kept the sessions in the same place where used to be sessions for AMWAY. same kind of pressure tactics to attract ppl. may be govt or some orgnizations should take some measures to act strictly on these kind of forums. ok Thank you once again...am worried is slowly this is stepping into organizations and managers are behind their subordinates to join in this sick kind of forums...
Yes, I agree. There are a few people I know who have taken the course and they are using this Landmark terminology...very robotic. It feels like a scam and it looks like a scam. They have not pushed me to join yet but everyday they act super happy (kinda fake actually)and have to tell me how they applied what they learned to their life. I don't understand how people can feel that bad about themselves that they NEED something like this. Landmark rips you apart and then builds you up. They make you rehash your past and then tell you to fix it...what? Seriously guys....if you are thinking of spending your money and being brainwashed do this course but really YOU DON'T NEED IT!!!!
ReplyDeleteDinesh I liked the way you have put it. I have not been to landmark & don't feel the need too. Somebody from my office recently approched me & I realized it's similarity with Amway & the likes. I thought its worst than Amway & likes because this attacks one's minds. Its a clear ploy of making business at the expense of the attendees money. I would like to join your efforts to try to eliminate this. We already have enough of our own swamijis & babas, we definitely do not need landmark.
ReplyDeleteAlso I forgot to mention that the way they measure their progress and self development is their ability to bring people to this program. I have seen a major change in my coworkers and I can tell you this:They SEEM fine but they are more confused now than before Landmark. They have told me step by step what Landmark does and it's scary. The people who LOVE landmark and say that it changed their lives are those who needed something...anything...don't mean to offend anyone but seriously this stuff will corrupt your mind.
ReplyDeleteAt least Amway gives you Pee breaks whenever you want lol
Sharing my Landmark experience in Texas, USA
ReplyDeleteMy introductory session speaker was from India, he stated, "you'll never get your life right if you don't get things right with your parents...No matter where you go in the world it will always follow you." In my case this was true. I enrolled because I wanted to resolve, or learn to resolve my issues. I thought he had some international secret that I was not aware of.
Although during the 4 day session, what others call "Brain washing," I didn't care for their controlling the environment. This is something we are not accustomed to or care for. There were tons of actions that one might think negative (I know I did) but every move, every story, every enlightenment, was for the purpose for all to "Get It." They didn't do anything illegal, immoral, or unethical. The session was facilitated by a French gentleman which only strengthened my belief that this was an international belief not yet making it into the United States.
What I learned:
1. Society teaches us to carry things from our past as we move forward in life. What we learn in 1st grade we take into 2nd grade and so forth. Many of us carry too much luggage. We need to let go of some of it.
2. I also learned that we are who we are because some significant life changing event set us in the path we are at. Without a coach we are stuck on the path until we deal or accept/understand what it was, and how it has impacted our lives. When I was 5 yrs old, I had a near death experience. For the first time in my life, I realized that I was vulnerable, and that I needed people. Because of that incident from the age of 5 until I was 33 I lived with a facade of "I am strong, and I don't need anybody." 'If you didn't have anything to offer me I had no reason to communicate with you.' Needless to say, what a lonely life. Once I realized the facade I was living and accepted the possibilities a great weight was lifted off my shoulders. I no longer had to hide behind the facade. It didn't make me any weaker of a person, on the contrary it made me stronger.
3. Understanding Maslow's ultimate Hierarchy of Needs--Self-Actualization I saw many successful people (Doctors, Lawyers, Business Owners) in my class. I realized that until we achieve self-actualization we will never be really happy no matter how successful we become. I believe this course led me to my own self-actualization.
Compare and understand the pricing: 4 days + 10 Weekly Sessions = 14 Sessions $400/14=$29 per session (even cheaper if you divide by the number of hours). I pay more for my kid's extra coaching sessions for their sports.
You'll hear of the negativity. Yes it will be uncomfortable, yes some people get so excited about it they want to share it with the world. I also understand the hard sell is very intimidating, their structure is harsh, but after I've been through it, and now I understand why-our own good. Many people say I'll get around to it, I'll do it when....they just strongly urge you. Being uncomfortable, and sharing embarrassing moments to move on to being the best you can be is a small price to pay. How many hours of practice do professional athletes have to sacrifice? Is 14 sessions that bad? I think, in the end, it's all worth the price. I don't think anybody who has ever been successful ever complained about the small sacrifices they had to endure.
Landmark Forum will not work if you're not open for change: like alcoholics, you can't help those who don't want to be helped.
Final thoughts: Like college, Landmark Forum is not for everyone. Many people go to college and don't alway get what they are taught. Do we blame the instructor, the school, or the student? I don't know the answer, I just know some people get it and some don't.
I guess I was one of the lucky ones who got something out of it.
Oh! I know all these even before taking the landmark forum. To assume that 'you will never be happy', if you don't learn some 'self actualization' crap goes on to say that those who feel so are emotionally weaker compared to those who are normal. They do need attention from a psychiatrist. They can definitely get enrolled in the landmark forum.
ReplyDeleteThose who have tasted less success in life and suffer inferiority complex feel the landmark forum good. They undergo an illusion that they have been seeing success only after they took the landmark forum. Naming some crap with some corporate tag like 'self-actualization' (sounding similar to 'Time Management' as even 'Time Management' is one hell of a thing) won't make any forum any good. Teachers? students? Oh no! When teachers have nothing to offer, they do not make good teachers. I did have a good teacher for Economics and English. I did well in these two subjects but I had a bad teacher for French in my college and I never learned any French till now.
In India, the education system is considered to have so many flaws and hence there is more of dropping out. We have all been trying to seek changes in the education system. Similarly, people do not need any crap to live their life properly but proper education in schools will do. Here, the term proper would mean the right kind of growth in the emotional and intelligence quotient of the students.
If not, then they would seek destructive paths, end up in despair and seek alternative means to fill the void that was created by deep failures and inferiority complex that has been acquired over the years.
You seemed determined not to allow someone to gain from Landmark, even when they are taking the middle ground on their experience. Some people need more help than others, some buy in more than others and I also think the Forum experience varies where you take it worldwide. Landmark has its (many) faults but if people have stayed grounded and yet still feel they've gained - where's the problem?
ReplyDeleteOf course, I do not want any individual to gain by fleecing those who enroll in the forum. The problem is the lack of clarity on if anyone gains from the forum. I also do not want anybody to be under the false illusion or impression of having gained something when they have gained nothing.
ReplyDeleteI guess nobody took middle ground and it was either way. Those who have their lives tormented due to the landmark forum in one way or the other need to be answered. If not, there must not be anymore people who will be tormented. Education has to happen through proper means and those who fleece do not teach and those who have gained are under the false impression of having done so. Let me ask you, if anyone says my comments are baseless, those who say they have gained are also baseless. They think they gained and where is the objective proof. The prevarication is that it will help me in one way or the other. How absurd!
Dinesh you are so right on!!!
ReplyDeleteIs no one here listening? I have not taken this landmark program but I work with a few people who have. I knew then BEFORE Landmark and After Landmark and they are now like robots!!!! This is the only reason I decided to research the organization to begin with. The decisions they are making in their personal lives are hindering! One woman told me yesterday that landmark told her that she has the POWER and now she is so controlling it is scary!
If you think that Landmark saved your life then you need to look at WHY you believe that lie. Landmark pushes you to do things and teaches you that it is the only way and the right way....ummmm don't think so.
Hey Dinesh,
ReplyDeleteWho are you most like your mother or your father? and why?
Just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Hi Dinesh,
ReplyDeleteOn the surface what Mickey and Rick say sound innocuous enough,but that is only the surface impression that people get when they don't understand the philosophy of Landmark/est.
The jargon of Landmark is not new to Landmark or even est, its predecessor. The terms "personal responsibility, authenticity, integrity and commitment" come from the works of Nietzsche, Heidegger and a few other new age philosophers. As taught by Landmark personal responsibility means that the individual is responsible for whatever befalls him or her. If taken to the extreme it could be said that a meteor striking and killing a person was that persons fault. Authenticity doesn't mean being original it means to act in a way that is in concert with oneself. Integrity is being a wholly integral person within oneself and commitment simply means to follow through with something if you say you are going to.
This language and the distinctions in Landmark provide only a empty framework that the individual must fill up by him or herself.
If that were the only thing that Landmark does I wouldn't have any problem with it. A person could adopt any or all of it in his own way that would make sense to the individual. But Landmark has a delivery system that mixes various psychotherapy techniques delivered in a marathon mass indoctrination setting that because of the physical,mental and emotional triggering mechanisms used is dangerous and irresponsible in the extreme.
I don't expect anyone to believe me just because I say this, just look what Landmark has on it's own website in the legal notices section as to what could happen to someone taking the training.
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?siteObjectID=343581&top=24
Is it any wonder why the range opinions run from "it was good for me", to " Landmark destroyed my life" and everything in between?
As for me I am not willing to play Russian Roulette with my mental health in such a setting.
As for Mickey and Rick, my intention is not to demean your experience. After all it is your experience and I have no way of verifying or vilifying any of what you say. I'm glad you appear to have gained from it. I just question the idea that just because it was good for one person that it should be extrapolated out to the majority of others.
Wayne,
ReplyDeleteGreat write up, you're on target. I just shared my experience and compared it to education, "some get it and some don't." My first write up was too long so I had to shortened it. Bottom line, I went looking for something, and I found something which helped me. Coming from a society where we are trained to carry things with us, we are not conditioned to leave behind what holds us back.
Sounds like your knowledgable in the psychology and philosophy. I wasn't so it was all new to me. Now you tell me, I could have saved over $400. : )
Looking back, I do agree and remember how uncomfortable things made me feel. I also agree extreme emotional triggering can be dangerous-it should be left up to professionals. I do believe the facilitators meet that criteria. But like doctors who try to help alcoholics, nobody can help others who aren't looking to be helped.
I've only recently looked back into the Forum, because I have a friend who has some issues. I had mentioned to her what I learned from the Forum. I did warn her of what to expect, but I told her my results were worth what I was put through.
Running into all the negative results I found on the internet, I think it is interesting that most are from those who've never attended the course. Many base their opinion on their minimal exposure, the introductory session, or 2nd or 3rd hand experience.
It has been so long ago that I feel comfortable to share what I have seen and how it has helped others.
One guy I worked with use to constantly tell his subordinates, "To hell with him, let him go." this was contrary to what we were doing. I used what I learned from my one course and in our staff meeting. Taking the guy through some basic steps others were able to see why and where he came up with that phrase. He was reliving his abandonment of his father. Needless to say, when it was all said and done, my retention rate increased, and my discharge rate dropped.
One lady constantly cried anytime she was complimented. Come to find out she was reliving a negative child hood experience from age 6. She had been doing it for 45 yrs.
Another lady was preparing for her 10th actuary exam. She realized she was in pursuit of this high accomplishment to try to please her father. She had lived her whole life trying to get her father's approval because she overheard him talking to a friend that he wished he had a son. Needless to say, she was the only child. She learned to accept that maybe she only heard part of the conversation and maybe the other gentleman was talking about him and his son, so her father might have said it, hoping to share those Father/Son experiences. She interpreted that he didn't love her. She had lived in "her world" for over 25 years.
Once again, I appreciate your point of view. I believe some of us just needed a little coaching or somebody to kick us in our pants. Being a former coach, I hate seeing potential going to waste. I think that's why there is a little (a lot) of "arm twisting."
Rick,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that I could agree that the facilitators meet the criteria as mental health professionals. They are trained in the delivery of the program materials not to assess what the mental state of a given individual is among a large group. Even if a trainer happens to be a therapist outside of Landmark the chance of his or her noticing an individual in the group who is in distress is greatly diminished because of them having to split their attention in the group.
I know and have known a number of people who have taken the Landmark forum and est before it and the result I've seen in them vary wildly. Some like you seem to have benefited from it but have reservations about some aspect or another. Some thought it was completely bogus. I currently have a friend who has been involved with it for about 20 years. Her type of involvement, for me, is the most troubling part of Landmark. She was taking one of their advanced course, which if I am correct involves a lot of recruiting of family and friends. She invited me several times to which each time I said "No, thank you." Each time I said no she seemed to withdraw into herself more. The only thing that seemed to make sense was that her identity was wrapped up so tightly with Landmark that my refusing Landmark was like refusing her. It took me a couple of weeks to convince her that I was simply saying no to Landmark, not her.
The issue of a portion of the graduates becoming so strongly identified with the process as apposed to the results to the point of addiction is a problem that seems to run in many of the negative threads on the internet. The most negative reports of Landmark from what I've seen come from graduates not 2nd hand descriptions. Lars Bergwik, for example, is one of the most vocal critics against Landmark and he was a former trainer for LE.
One can't ever be self actualized...this is where the disappointment sets in.
ReplyDeleteIn the world of self help much of what is taught through books, seminars and the like tend to set people up to fail. If you tell everybody they can get or do anything they want in life and then tell them it's your own fault if you fail at it, if they approach every endeavor without a spirit of moderation and reasonableness they end up coming back to the same gurus to figure out what they are doing wrong. This is a great business model for repeat business but it creates insecurity and helplessness in the individual. A good book on the self help phenomenon is "SHAM" by Steve Salerno.
ReplyDeletehi, wayne d, you rock mate, im an ozzie, and my mate today, tonite is chasing me to attend his grad,,,,he rang to ask if my wife, son and myself could attend,,,,just to be given this, which he has found.....only because we are mates, that i didnt ask him if he is going loonie on me......he said he will not give up on me???he said he'll keep trying to get me there,,,,,he kept saying things like,,,,,they are not a scam, or a cult, and that it's so cheap to get all these tools and stuff to take with him from the forum, and how i will see a big change in him from today on,,,,,how he will become successful now he has done this second coarse,,,,,he my mate is a builder,and a good one, but lacks in relationships what i got out of my marriage, now in its 33rd year....LOVE.
ReplyDeleteAnd his father was a FREEMASON, and very old by the time he was 14 odd years old.....and he had 2 failed relationships, on included a child, now 26 years old.........My wife today had her hair cut by his daughter, she said,,,oh YOU CANT CALL NOW>>>>>>he cant talk now,,,,ring after 10.30pm..she said HELL they are not even allowed to pee when they want too....she said she was pressured to attend with him before, i asked her what its all about, and she went quite.She said its all crap, terlling you shit and then telling you what to fix and how.....its a money making scam to teach you what you can read in a self help book.....and they want more enrollee's....AT ANY COST TO YOU....even if it means straining a relationship.My mate is just that,,,a mate BUT HOW DO YOU TELL HIM THAT THIS IS BS????? He will finish the coarse on Tuesday and is going to call me tomorrow and Tuesday to ask me to reconsider his request to attend FOR MY SAKE not his?????I'm an ozzie , and i have a friend in CHENNAI.....I'm on your side DINESH, and i feel WAYNE D is a gentleman,,,,,,I wish you success in stopping this from spreading like a cancer.....in your country, and wish the same for all countrys, including mine.....keep up the good work mate, and plz accept mycongradulations for haveing this site to talk about this leaching....or sucking of blood from victims..... DAVID M... australia
First of all...the major reason why I think Landmark is TERRIBLE is because it doesn't even make sense! I have a friend who has been bugging me to attend Landmark. I told her that if there was any chance of me going I would want to know WHAT is was like. After much resistance she told me. SHe tried to make it sound positive but seriously it was NUTS!
ReplyDeleteThe course starts at 9am and sits through training till midnight? SERIOUSLY that's abuse! How can you have 2 breaks in a 14 hour day? She said she ate once that day...on that alone I would stay away from Landmark. Secondly, she told me that they force you to think of shit that's bad in your life or things that have happened to you and then they tell you it's not real it's a story and how YOU interpret that story...WHAT? Then they give you homework (at midnight I would be too tired to even think plus being food deprived or having an aching bladder from holding my pee in!)
I sat there listening to her for 1 hour and I felt stupid when I left. I told her I have Jesus in my life and already feel fulfilled thank you very much=)
About being self -actualized...this world has become so self absorbed it is disappointing in many ways. This journey and quest for FINDING ONE SELF...seriously guys come on! Landmark teaches all this stuff about YOU HAVING THE POWER and puts blame and pressure on you. Life is hard enough without all this BS.
I think that as a society we should focus on LOVE and helping others....please stay away from Landmark. Thank you=)
Thanks to one and all and so much to David and of course, Wayne D. Salinger. I like his full name. The response has been overwhelming and there is a unified response on how the landmark forum is. Nothing needs to be learned by foregoing nature's calls. The moment must be taken.
ReplyDeleteIf the forum has irked so many, it means what we hear about landmark forum has more possibilities of being true. If anyone's personal life is scuppered by the landmark forum, such intrusion on personal life is close to being called crime. We may become happy at anyone who opts out of the forum on seeing the facts corroborated by so many of those who are affected by the landmark forum in one way or the other.
Thank you Dinesh, I post here because it seems a good place to disseminate important information to a populace that is only fairly recently being targeted by Landmarks marketers.
ReplyDeleteThank you too David, Actually you rock in my book because you have been married for 33 years in a loving relationship.
In dealing with your mate you just have to be consistent in telling him "No, thank you". He may continue to regale you with all the wonderful benefits of Landmark but just continue to respectfully decline. Offer no explanations. There is nothing more powerful than a high quality "no".
It may be difficult to maintain his friendship under these circumstances but if you can it could give him the best chance of coming to his senses in short order having a consistent friend outside of Landmark.
Anthropologists call these types of groups "cults of the afflicted" because they tell their members that there is something wrong with them and only the group has the answer. Except the answer never truly materializes. These groups have been around a long time in one form or another.
Quality "No"- Great advice Wayne D . Right now I am practicing this with my brother
DeleteThanks
SVKR
www.rickross.org....wow I just read some articles about Werner Erhard...sickening
ReplyDelete"Landmark has a delivery system that mixes various "psychotherapy techniques" delivered in a "marathon mass indoctrination" setting that because of the "physical,mental and emotional triggering mechanisms" used is "dangerous and irresponsible" in the extreme."
ReplyDeleteThese are some of the best lines I have ever read. There is so much clarity in these words which does not require any sort of authentic or physical corroboration. Those who talk about the negatives of the Forum have been doing so without ever being into the Forum.
To me, it means that we have avoided the forum after going through the initial introductory session with which we deciphered how the forum would turn out. We have held our precautions. And David, by the way, I get to understand your concept a little and to some extent not. Maybe, we need to discuss more.
I would be happy meeting you in Tamil Nadu or Chennai. bobdeni244@gmail.com, bobdeni244@yahoo.co.in are my primary email addresses. Hope to hear from you soon!
well, i disagree wid u....
ReplyDeletei nvr think dat landmark education is a money dwindling scam....or a marketing agenda stuff or something like that
plz do a search once more
Well it is a scam...I have seem real life people change after landmark and I can assure you it's not for the better. This idea that we need to reach self actualization is detrimental to one's reality. Tell the people who I know who have taken this course and feel depressed everyday that LANDMARK is not a scam....please do more research and stay away from false teachings.
ReplyDeletethank you=)
Hi Dinesh, i'll email you tomorrow.regards D.M.
ReplyDeletei suspect that this Landmark smells an awful lot like the movie "The Wave"... give it a look on Wikipedia
ReplyDeleteWhy do we have such a hunger to be significant? Landmark is a temporary fix that leads to much disappointment...sorry
ReplyDeleteI'm glad Landmark has worked for few of you here. But I like to point out, my experience of Landmark has put me off.
ReplyDeleteAt landmark program, they tired my brain; they made me vulnerable and the participants finally end up becoming recruiters. That's the whole purpose.
They use 'group think' social pressure, circular logic and pure exhaustion as their weapons. The landmark techniques are remarkably similar to the brainwashing strategies that cults use to indoctrinate their members.
I would strongly caution anyone from attending these meetings. Anyone who considers signing up should do some research before commiting.
Hi
ReplyDeleteI agree, you do not need anymore crap education!
Thanks for provoking the debate via this blog. Somebody referred this landmark education in a fairly innocuous mail and what made me curious was the reference to attend it with my wife. Would love to see you write on your observations on the Art of Living movemement of sri sri... Am sure they claim to do a fair amount of good and mr. ravishankar is an englightened soul for sure, but i generally keep away from such movements.
ReplyDeletesri sri sri Anonymous..
(i.e. one better than HIM :-)..
The name of this blog reads "Rational Films" which combines two of my primary interests - Rationalism and Films. There are other posts for my interest in movies. And this post is for Rationalism.
ReplyDeleteThere is also a spoilt Sri Sri Swamy called "Nithyananda". You can use this tag to search for it in this blog. Propagating abstinence in sex, he slept with a heroine called Ranjitha behind closed doors. It was shot with a hidden camera by his disciple - an advanced camera imported from the US :)
High Definition! Those (s)explicit scenes were aired on TV by a local media mogul of a channel called Sun TV. Buahahahaha! It was Universal - Kids, adolescents, young, middle aged and also the oldies squinted to watch their so called 'Godman' sleep with an actress who was long out of mainstream films.
People had believed he was God! Now they show the dirty part of slippers to his face! So, I do not even take the risk to be around a mile of these Swamijis. I would strongly advise the west to stay away unless they are willing to go for "Sacred and Divine Orgy Parties".
Believe none of the Swamis and you live a good life. Believe them, you are ruined. And the Sri Sris are multi millionaires. I regret the underestimated statement - They are billionaires. Forgive me Swamis for calling you millionaires which is a condescension.
The money is those of his devotees who have been strongly advised to disseminate them (towards one source. i.e. the Swami's Ashram) as money is a sin. The God Man will suck all your sins and will redeem you of even a penny of sin! He will bear all your burden of billions of rupees and dollars. Are dollars more heavier than rupees?
Rich old chaps! Now, don't say "Poor old chaps". It is only being rich that is a burden. I pity these Swamis for bearing billions (of sin or money) on them. I wonder if "Sri Sri" is an exception. The judgment is for you to make. Definitely, I have mentioned the consequences but if that individual is to be believed, dare doing it.
Swamis are real great thing! They are heavenly and pleasuresome! Of course, orgies are too! Follow them :)
The name of this blog reads "Rational Films" which combines two of my primary interests - Rationalism and Films. There are other posts for my interest in movies. And this post is for Rationalism.
ReplyDeleteThere is also a spoilt Sri Sri Swamy called "Nithyananda". You can use this tag to search for it in this blog. Propagating abstinence in sex, he slept with a heroine called Ranjitha behind closed doors. It was shot with a hidden camera by his disciple - an advanced camera imported from the US :)
High Definition! Those (s)explicit scenes were aired on TV by a local media mogul of a channel called Sun TV. Buahahahaha! It was Universal - Kids, adolescents, young, middle aged and also the oldies squinted to watch their so called 'Godman' sleep with an actress who was long out of mainstream films.
People had believed he was God! Now they show the dirty part of slippers to his face! So, I do not even take the risk to be around a mile of these Swamijis. I would strongly advise the west to stay away unless they are willing to go for "Sacred and Divine Orgy Parties".
Believe none of the Swamis and you live a good life. Believe them, you are ruined. And the Sri Sris are multi millionaires. I regret the underestimated statement - They are billionaires. Forgive me Swamis for calling you millionaires which is a condescension.
The money is those of his devotees who have been strongly advised to disseminate them (towards one source. i.e. the Swami's Ashram) as money is a sin. The God Man will suck all your sins and will redeem you of even a penny of sin! He will bear all your burden of billions of rupees and dollars. Are dollars more heavier than rupees?
Rich old chaps! Now, don't say "Poor old chaps". It is only being rich that is a burden. I pity these Swamis for bearing billions (of sin or money) on them. I wonder if "Sri Sri" is an exception. The judgment is for you to make. Definitely, I have mentioned the consequences but if that individual is to be believed, dare doing it.
Swamis are real great thing! They are heavenly and pleasuresome! Of course, orgies are too! Follow them :)
landmark forum should be ban in india
ReplyDeleteHello Dinesh,
ReplyDeletePlease do not write rubbish when u dont know completely about Landmark. Do you know what kind of projects did Participants of Landmark take up? Its about planting trees, Helping poor people, helping Blind, Clean city on and on...
Even I had the same feeling like you on my first day of my Landmark forum, but after completing only I came to know about what actually it is. you dont even know that they run orphanage, the only thing is that they dont go into publicity. I think this has made some differecene to you...
Here is an interesting first hand account http://thirtytwothousanddays.com/blog/2011/02/landmark-forum-cult-scam-or-path-to-enlightenment/
ReplyDeleteDont you all think these volunteers are getting some sort of commission????? if not than why would they force someone or work for someone....?? places like USA and now India where people don't have time for their families why someone will come to such place and force a person..I have seen people forcing their friends for no good reason.
ReplyDeleteThanks for starting this great conversation. i have been to some intro meetings and know people involved with this. my biggest surprise has been how people will sign up with no research ahead of time. i know more about the organization, it's history, philosophy, techniques, than people who have actually done the coursework. why aren't recruits even curious about these aspects before signing up? people will spend more time considering what to have for breakfast than what sort of drivel they'll PAY to have pounded into their heads for a weekend. why don't people see all the red flags? my BS detector goes crazy at these things. the hard sell, the circular logic, the vague promises,the pseudo scientific self help pablum, it's like a combination of amway and scientology for the oprah crowd. i'm still trying to figure out some aspects. can anyone tell me about "distinctions", and how the recruiting is structured for the ILP students? people i know who have done landmark are too secrective and havent told me most of this. it's always, "you have to sign up to find out". ha.
ReplyDeleteDinesh/ Wayne/ others
ReplyDeleteGreat comments, great insights, great blog. I feel that LF is cheating people with something that can be called a drug or brainwashing. This has to stop. LF has to be actually put to an end.
Saty
Sadly I have to concur with many of the comments found here, thank you Dinesh for opening up this space.
ReplyDeleteI have been in a committed relationship with a Lamndmarker for four years, it has always been turbulent because I have never been willing to sign up.
I won't go into personal details, but after all this time I still find myself faced with "I can't have a relationship with you unless you do the forum"
Well enough is enough. If this were simply a personal development course this would never happen, there is something more insidious at the heart of this organisation.
A simple look at the life of Jack Rosenberg aka Erhard is quite educational.
I did the Landmark Forum last week, and I found it disappointing....I was told it would be life changing, and at the start of the course, I was guaranteed that I would be transformed at the end of it. This 'transformation' did not happen for me. The course is predominantly about 'completing your past', something that I already had done through years of therapy with a proper mental health professional, and this is why I think the course was of little benefit to me. The leader uses convoluted circular logic and forces words into your mouth, and you really do start to believe what the leader is telling you. However, once you get out into the real world, you realise that nothing has changed, you have not changed, and the world has not changed. You get caught up in the moment, in your little bubble with all the other course attendees. But reality hits, and you realise you just wasted $635 and a very exhausting and draining 3 days for nothing.
ReplyDeleteThe people in my course who did get something out of it were people who were highly dysfunctional to begin with. For example, the majority of the people there either had no direction or goals in life, or at least close 1 family member whom they had not spoken to in years, or a string of broken relationships or divorces behind them, or abused drugs in the past. These people are not what I would call 'functional', and so I think it is safe to say that the main group of people who benefit from Landmark are dysfunctional in some way or another. I had no such 'issues' upon entering Landmark, and so I didn't get much out of it. However, Landmark gave these other people a new insight, and new direction.
I have had several friends do the course in the past, and they have benefited from it, but I havent. It's not for everyone, but Landmark will tell you that everyone can benefit from it, and that everyone can be transformed. Take these promises lightly. Try it out for yourself, but don't believe all that they promise. Everyone is different, and so not everyone will get something out of it.
I still think seeing a mental health professional, such as a psychologist, would be of much greater benefit for people who have such issues as described. They are properly trained to deal with these sorts of things. The leader of the Forum is nothing more than a salesman.....he knows how to say things in such as way so that you are convinced and buy into what he is saying.
I attended the course myself in Chennai some three months back. It was such a torture and felt that people are taken for a ride. Just because someone talks good English, or works in a good company as a CEO or some such big sounding positions they are not fit to tell some one what to do.
ReplyDeleteI was trapped in to it by a well meaning niece. My mind was numbed for a few hours and before I realized I had signed in paying the entire 7500 Rs., thanks to the credit card.
I felt the first signs of entrapment when the girl signaled to the person on the dias with a thumps up signal indicating that she had succeeded in getting me in when I finished paying the money.
Then the air was filled with stories of success of various grades from those brokers of transformation waiting to take you to wonderland of enlightenment. Kudos to their dedication in this cause.
The whole episode gets complicated when your own close niece or daughter joins forces with them and compel you to cough out the money in whatever cause they may proclaim.
I felt that the whole exercise is a waste of time. It is meant for the mentally unstable and for those who go out of their mind at least on and off. If any one is even a little bit self respecting and reasonable will not be able to sit through the course.
I walked out within 2 hours of starting of the course, cursing the entire world and myself for falling prey to this gang of modern day robbers. If you do not believe this please pay and attend. You will not lose much. If you are sane you will walk out. If not at least you will get good company.
Murugan Nellayappan
I appreciate Dinesh and Murugan for their understanding of what a scam it is.
ReplyDeleteI also know of one who is trapped in to it.
My interest is in how to get someone trapped in to it, out of it. I guess those 'transformed' are the ones who have lost their identity. When people around them can't accept this new identity, all the earlier relationships breakdown, and the person sufffers terribly. My question is- what if you accept this new identity? Will time bring this person back to reality?
I would respectfully disagree with your main points about The Landmark Forum, and would say that nothing like 'brutal torture' awaits anyone who takes part, unless you find it torture to take a long, hard honest look at one's life in a respectful environment. (Ok, there was one thing that was torturous - the chairs - sitting in uncomfortable chairs for 10 hours a day is probably the hardest part of the class). The idea that Landmark's a cult, or brainwashing just doesn't jive at all with my own experience.
ReplyDeleteA fundamental notion of the course is that each of us has a fairly fixed view of ourselves and the world, and that for us to make progress in life and achieve new results, by taking new actions, it will take a new view of the world in order to take new actions. In other words, some challenging of one's worldview is necessary to open up something new, and this simple fact is what I feel leads to some controversy and discomfort - we mostly don't like to have our worldview challenged - it annoys us! But being willing to try on different views also allows for new things. When I gave up some negative views about my parents, my relationship with them improved immeasurably.
Another objective way to get a sense of it is to look at some people are saying on Yelp:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/landmark-education-corporate-headquarters-san-francisco
I am also talking about their practices of forcing one to join the forum. Sometimes, even when unwilling, friends, peers, acquaintances, family members, spouses force the other to join which has wreaked havoc in a lot of relationships. That's also the point!
ReplyDeleteI don't recommend LE for a simple reason that few days of moral science lecture does not make anyone perfect.Experience is a man's best teacher.I don't believe in enlightenment overnight.What is said in LE classes is what our elders and well wishers have advised over the years....free of cost.Some people choose to open their mind & ears after we they 11000/-.
ReplyDeleteBe nice to everyone,empathise,help if possible and be honest.Nothing else is required....I have followed this principle and Iam happy.
Hi Dinesh and Wayne,
ReplyDeleteI just came across your blog, Thank God! I did the Landmark Forum this weekend and am scheduled to "graduate" on Tuesday night... I am sick to my stomach about the bs I have just heard for 3 days and do not want to go to the graduation...
I was referred to this seminar by a friend who I admired and respected and hoped to do some computer work for...
I am SOOO let down and disappointed...
I would like if it is possible for either one of you to send me the movies you are talking about, the French one and the BBC documentary...
I have been reading this forum for about an hour now and am unable to finsih the whole thing but I will..
I am trying to figure out how to get out of going to the graduation...or maybe I should go and just get stronger and be able to say no... I even had a mini fight with the "trainer" at the end of the third day... I felt that I had raised my hand many times and especially when she dropped the bombshell about how "everything is meaningless" and we are just machines and all of that crap... I asked her if she was ignoring me and she basically said to me "how dare I come up and speak to her like a three year old child"... I explained to her that that was not the case and then she told me "strong suit"... I told her all I wanted was an answer and she finally answered me, no I am not ignoring you, but is that a pattern that happens to you throughout your life? and be willing to create something bigger than that...
I talked about it with my friend on the way home and told him I thought she was lying and he would up telling me "well that's the way you are going to see the world"...and some more bs...
I feel so sick over this whole situation... I am so glad to have read many of the posts and feel better...
MY GOD! I had NO idea this was connected to EST and also that that man was a professed Nazi! I have to tell you... during the last hour of her speaking (the Dutch trainer Ria) I actually felt that I was seeing a Communist on stage! I even turned to my friend and said she sounds like a Russian now (but what I really meant was a control freak dictator like the Nazis were)
I am going to email you and in case I don't get you, here is my email, PLEASE write back to me ASAP!
sunshells55@bellsouth.net
Thanks guys!
Landmark Forum is for people who don't have the confidence in themselves to move further. At the same time, we all will agree that if they don't advertise through participants ( cost effective; hence no media advertisement) the organisation will die. In my view those who feel they can, please sponsor to the deserving and needy persons who normally don't mix with group. To Landmark Leaders, Graduates and all those who invite people, kindly tell the truth like odd timing and do not comment like you are running racket as if you do pay money to them.
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ReplyDeleteHi Dinesh Babu
ReplyDeleteYour article is spot on. Recently my brother got hooked to Landmark and has finished Forum and Advanced Course. I was doing general search about Landmark and as soon as I found that it might cause mental breakdown.I gave up the idea of even considering LM as option ( yes , i am a patient of recurrent depression - clinical condition for which I was put on anti-depressant). When I told this to my brother that people with mental illness history are not supposed to take LM. He just didn't listen to me at all which disappointed me very much.
Other change I noticed is that he has started using LM lingo - "got it" , breakthrough. etc.
Anyway they arent preaching anything new.Their so called "teaching" may be helpful to some but what they are practicing is very questionable. And LM is definitely for me.
Thanks
SVKR
Typo correction on last sentence - **And LM is definitely NOT for me**.
ReplyDeleteThanks
SVKR
Hi, I am a 28yrs old,married,and mother of one. I am from Hyderabad. I did my landmark forum in august 2012 in hyd along with my husband. Then i did my Advanced course and also SELP. I was not at all willing to do SELP, but my husband forced me like anything. Life has become like hell after these courses. Thanks to landmark, my relation with my husband has been ruined completely. We have more and more fights daily and worst part is that my son is suffering because of this. I really want people to know that landmark is nothing but only money making business. They literally play with people's emotions and spoil their relations. Please do not fall prey to such kind of cheaters.
ReplyDeleteHello Anonymous
DeleteLandmark education destroys families. What your going through is typical. I know a few whose family lives are destroyed. Have patience. Slowly work with your husband. Seek psychiatric help. A warning: make sure the counsellor you see is the right one. There are many quacks out there who can do more harm than good.
As they say Time is great Healer.
Goodluck
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ReplyDeleteMy best friend was Stalked and Sexually harassed by a landmark education program leader.
All landmark program leaders are man whores, creeps!! Landmark is full of predators. All landmark leaders are dying to sleep with all the young girls there.
Landmark Education claims are all Bullshit on providing an environment free from sexual or other forms of harassment. Please i beg all the GIRLS/WOMEN reading this to STAY AWAY from landmark forum.
I blame myself every day for registering my best friend into the landmark forum "I gave the landmark forum to her as her birthday gift"
She was so impressed with the landmark education work that she went on to do the Introductions leaders program and her lifes purpose became to become a leader in landmark education.
The Worst happened to her she was stalked by a program leader, a married man!!She struggled to function for 3/4 months,she could not talk to him to stop, she finally complained to the Introductions leader program head.
She quit landmark and now she thinks of herself as incapable of dealing with situations in life. She is so beautiful and vibrant has become dull and silent.
I want to ruin Landmark!!
My best friend is from wealthy, well known family. She was so social, famous in the party circuit.
When her dream of becoming a leader was shattered by this so called "program leader of landmark " = BASTARD he never allowed her to breathe, he harassed her, he chased her all the time, use to stare at her within 4 feet distance. So much disturbance. How should she go ahead with her dream???
Isn't a leader suppose to encourage and help others grow or want to screw up with their lives. Just want to have sex with them.
She has stopped working, doesnt talk or meet anyone, is on medication. We took her to a psychologist.
She still wants to be a landmark leader, we all are fed of this dream of hers! She doesnt want to give up, we all dont allow her to go to landmark, she still wants to go back and fight it, because she thinks why should she be deprived of her dream.
i want an avenue , someone please help me.. i want to take this piece of information in the newspapers without giving away names.
Please help me!! I have proof.. lot of friends of hers in landmark are ready to talk about it.
We all friends wanted to go to the local newspaper here but my friend and her family refused.
I have started to discourage girls from joining landmark forum.
I pray that landmark education shuts down
i want this information to go all over the world, mainly ASIA. i am ready to pay any amount. I need help.
I want to put this on TV / newspapers etc..
My friends life has been destroyed, am not leaving landmark education at all. Otherwise this will continue with other girls. i want to take action and destroy landmark.
And landmark thinks they teach an education in living - bloody -bad people-. They ruin lives, families.
If anyone reading this, is concerned and humane about saving girls from these man whores landmark forum leaders please help me. Please help me.
Landmark forum destroys families.
DeleteWatch this youtube video to understand what cults can do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4oEYQhtsYw
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Hi All, One of my dear friends who just completed her advance course is pressurizing me to enroll into it. I have done enough of my own research to decide it is not for me and I do not like the whole thing. I find it to be a big scam. Her question to me is: what is the real cause of my resistance; leaving aside money and time. She is a very persistence person and my answer to that "I do not feel the need for it" is bringing up whole lot of discussions on how all of us have deficiencies in relations etc. Please let me know few rational statements why I should not get pressurized. Yes; I have used their marketing stunts against them to its fullest. But she gives her own explanation for that. How they need to survive and thrive etc.
ReplyDeleteThey are not just a scam. A scam just takes away your money. But this one can be dangerous and can destroy your family.
DeleteI am glad you have not succumbed.It is one of their tricks to engage you in a debate in which they have well crafted and well rehearsed points to overcome every one of your objections. You can never win an argument with them. Your friend may even resort to things like being offended and crying etc. Your friend may indeed be offended and crying may even be genuine. Look at it as your friend being drunk or possessed.
Their strategy is to exploit normal people being nice and reasonable. The only way you can escape is being 'Unreasonable'. Just imagine walking down a lonely street on a dark evening, a suspicious looking character accosts you and asks you to go out with him and does not take no for an answer. Would you want to engage in a debate with him to prove why you should not want go with him.
Just ask your friend to get lost.
hi, my husband is doing land mark forum it is a never ending story,
ReplyDeletehe started his forum in march 2013 and he is either going for seminar or assisting (where they act as volunteers)he spends weekly 5 days going to forum,me and my children are suffering as he does not spend much time with us.The LF is ruining both our married and family life i am struggling on how to get him out of it please take our life as example and don't join LF it literally ruins ur life
Tell your husband to bring integrity to your marriage and children.Landmark forum does not take people away but connects them. looks like he is not getting true impact of his actions.
DeleteLook at those words..'integrity'..This is the the jargon of Landmark. You seem to be recently converted or the one destroying your own family right now.
DeleteHope you realise before it is too late
I had great breakthroughs in my life. Three days of work changes my life and i got the things in life that i was looking for ever. It was gift that keeps giving. so hope people do not give up after your opinion and try it for themselves. it is only place where people get transformation in three days and create new possibilities that are not from past.
ReplyDelete'Breakthrough', 'gift', 'possibilities', 'transformation' again some more landmark jargon, typical of cults. 'Try it for yourself' a typical ploy.
DeleteYou are on the way to destroy yourself and others.
to explain Landmark forum is like to explain eyesight, do you remember the movie Matrix? green or red pill? that's what the forum is about. to take the red pill and see for your self who you really are. to have an honest thinking, not a positive one. you will face your fears and see for yourself how great you are!!
ReplyDelete..it takes courage to the forum, its not for everyone. people read online "its a cult, its brainwashing..." but still take it. its not for everyone.
ReplyDeletethe best part is that the forum doesn't teach you anything, doesn't fix anything.you are perfect the way you are, there is nothing wrong with you or with anyone else. its also not religious at all, it brings you close to your faith, I have never been as muslim as I am right now. remember there is nothing wrong with you. have a happy life.
Hi All,
ReplyDeleteI wonder how and why do people speak in this forum decently! LF is such a bloody motherfucking gang. They tortured for 3 hours (starting at 6.45pm till 10.15pm) without any break/refreshments/water at least. The speaker was quoting idiotic and useless instances of his life in an effort to make the forum interesting(pathetic). There were volunteers in front and amongst me and my dad not letting us go anywhere. The way they were forcing us to join was too irritating and in the end I burst with the speaker when he tried to force me to join. I screamed at him telling that 'I dont have any energy (at 10pm) to listen to you anymore. I am a person who can't resist hunger (my dad so is) and this was terrific.' The most wasted hours in my life are those 3 hrs. Such a stupidity. They claim that this first meeting will change our lives. But ironically, that event is staying as a bitter experience in my mind. I was too senseless to attend the meeting for a friend of mine who was constantly pursuing me to join. Friends! Please form a forum to close down this stupid business in 100 countries.
I have to say, I did at some take a few courses with Sai Maa for some time and frankly they are without a doubt a Cult.
ReplyDeleteI have a friend who’s life was in great chaos and crisis but after she continued for a few years with Sai Maa I noticed she began to lose family and friends to the destructive brainwashes of Sai Maa and her disciples they literally tore her apart and ruined her life.
They turn people into Sai Maa fans and you see it on some of the faces of the people who work for Sai Maa. These people are called Sai Maa Robots, they are wide eyed entranced almost psycho looking people. The link below are photos that show the insane fans of Sai Maa and the people that get high from being Fans of hers.
They even assign there robots to coach people, to turn them into Sai Maa fans. To only trust Sai Maa. They tell you what to say how to respond to Sai Maa how to stand, how to bow. What to eliminate from your life including loved ones. Encourage dependency and conformity. It’s a Mental torture crafted to change your mind to basically copy each other, there is no personality, they just copy each other. I watched all this for awhile while attending courses at Sai Maa and at some point had to leave because it was just too crazy.
Sai Maa is not just a scam. A scam just takes away your money. But this one can be dangerous and can destroy your relationship with loved ones and your family!!!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87914616@N06/32682550860/
I know at least 9 people who’s lives were shatterd by this organization. They exploit and dehumanize and objectifies people. I still know people that continue to be Devotee members or Slaves to her. They are with out a doubt a Cult and have en fact ruined lives especially young people. The young people i feel so sad for, their lives are being wasted working for this woman who is making millions and brain washing or should I say Mind Screwing them ! To the point where they would even kiss the woman feet !! How do there parents feel about there sons & daughters being exploited like this, there kids look like sad fools worshiping this fake Evil Woman who is appearing like a godly Good Person when she is absolutely not ! The traumatic impact she has caused on many peoples lives is INSANE! Someone needs to take action and stop this Cult and shut them down before it get worse !! They continue to go to different city’s trying to enlist more and more people to join and be her devotees !!
ReplyDeleteThe people in India know Sai Maa is Fake and that is why they don’t like her at all. She adores another scam artist and a con Guru named Sai Baba who raped young boys and girls and was sexual predator who had criminal sexual assaults charges. She is greedy for money and power hungry. She is also particularly fond of breaking up marriages and keeping the men close. She claims celibacy and makes her closest devotees follow the same and then she has sex with her students who are married. This is a wicked woman to to core, but when you see her you don’t get that right away but trust me you will feel it, you will feel something just isn’t right about the person and her devotees students, teachers and the Cult organization.